Very well done. Thank you. Sadly, if you had attempted this summation of the conflict orally it would have been brief indeed, having been abruptly interrupted by some self-designated representative of truth and justice.
1. The horrors in Gaza are Hamas' responsibility. A terrorist group that uses hospitals and schools as military bases and builds tunnels under civilian populations is responsible for civilian suffering and death.
2. Israel doesn't have magical powers that allow them to defeat Hamas without a lot of civilians dying. It's impossible. Do you think a lot of German civilians died as the Allies defeated the Nazis?
3. Israel is being led by a unity government. When the war is over B. N. will likely lose the election. But the opposition party holds the same objectives (free hostages and defeat Hamas). There is widespread support in Israel to defeat Hamas.
4. Hamas could stop the suffering at any moment. Simply release the hostages and go into exile outside of Gaza.
5. There was a "ceasefire" on October 6. Hamas broke it. According to media reports, Hamas won't agree to a new ceasefire. Unfortunately, they benefit from dragging this out and increasing the suffering. They hope world opinion will turn against Israel before they are defeated.
6. Hamas leaders have publicly stated they will repeat October 7 over and over.
The whole thing is horrible but given this situation, what should Israel do?
Thank you for those observations. I wonder sometimes about selective outrage. Sudan is likewise being decimated by internal conflict. No protests about that it seems.
This topic is so fraught that I find the most practical way forward is to pray only positive prayers for Israel , for the Palestinians and for Hamas .Clearly God has the answers - but I do appreciate your clear thinking , thank you .
Thanks for posting. I grew up in Dearborn, Michigan, (and in the Plymouth Brethren movement) where at that time, our neighborhood was about 30% Arabic speaking (it is now 98% Arab speaking). I went to school with kids who spent their summer vacation back in Palestine running messages for the then Fatah. As a young adult in Detroit, the overwhelming majority of Palestinian Americans (both Christian and Muslim) I knew did not believe in a two state solution or in the continued existence of a Jewish State, and supported the various generations of resistance movements.
As an adult, in a career in humanitarian assistance (HA) I visited Israel a number of times and specifically (OPT or WB/GAZA) after the 2nd Intifada to lead a team doing an HA assessment and interviewed PA officials, and saw the heavy handedness of the IDF toward Palestinians in both WB and GAZA.
Frankly, I see no resolution to the current situation.
However, I know that just as the Kingdom of God was so different in the first century it should still be so now, and it will not allow us to support wholesale violence in either direction, -
What is the alternative view to give to either an Israeli or a Palestinian? Is our position, like a International Red Cross position neutral, or a pox on both houses?
As an initial comment, I'm not sure your judgment of Netanyahu’s goals and motives is entirely fair. It seems somewhat presumptive to say he wants to destroy or starve all Gazan Palestinians and that his main motivation is power. That's pretty strong.
Now, one clear reality is that Hamas has sworn, in their charter, to the destruction of Israel. The *state* of Israel. Israel has sworn to the destruction of Hamas, a terrorist organization, *after* Oct. 7, with Hamas saying they would repeat Oct. 7 over and over. And regardless of what any Palestinian authority has ever said, they have rejected every opportunity for a two state solution over the last 70 plus years, all the way back to the original UN resolution. This is because they only want the elimination of Israel. So after the October 7th Hamas attack Israel has reacted very strongly in a mission of self preservation. Their slogan following the loss of 6 *million* of their people in the Holocaust is of course "never again". So it's understandable they are in a bit of a manic mode. Understandable emotionally. I don't fully approve of it, but the U.S. acted somewhat similarly after 911. We must be sympathetic to encouraging some sort of proper strategy that does eliminate Hamas, not everyone in Gaza! Hamas makes that difficult with their despicable civilian human shields and their tunnel strategy (paid for with aid dollars). See this article in Newsweek declaring Israel has been more cautious about civilian casualties in urban warfare than *any* other nation!
I'm not even close to being a dispensationalist. It's wrong-headed theology in my view. But, I don't think God's purposes for Israel as a people in the land are fully complete. Jesus is returning to Jerusalem if we believe the prophets, so I wouldn't want to predict God's actions towards those who try to destroy Israel's existence.
Agree overall with what you said. I too have friends - Jewish and Muslim - each posting pics and stories of the atrocities endured by their people. It’s all quite horrible.
This line sort of struck me though - “It is one thing to take a life, the life of your adversary, but it’s another thing to lose your humanity in the process.”
I don’t know that it’s possible to engage in long term warfare - even with the best of intentions and rule following - without losing your humanity. The U.S. has been engaging in active combat around the world pretty constantly for over 20 years now - and the number of devastated soldiers and families is quite horrible. A recent finding is that even those who have not technically seen combat can have suffered severe and life altering brain damage from participating in grenade and artillery firing where their brains are subjected to repeated explosive force. And when these soldiers return to civilian life, they get lots of public “thank you for your service” while too often their wounds of all kinds are ignored or denied - leaving them and their families to cope alone and confused. It would be nice if war was truly fought by some kind of rules that preserved the warrior’s humanity, but I am not so sure that really happens.
This is a topic that unfortunately I'm starting to get to the point of avoiding because both sides are now so entrenched in their views its impossible to have a reasoned conversation. On the one hand you have people who no find some way to rationalize what Hamas did on Oct 7th, no matter how evil it was. But now on the other side there's a dehumanization of Palestinians that is starting to result in almost a desire for more and more Palestinian blood to be spilled in a spirit of retribution. There has always been this resistance to thinking through what happens with this conflict long term and people resort to just saying Hamas needs to be eradicated (sure yes I don't disagree, but then what? The underlying problems arent going anywhere). But I'm increasingly seeing some pro Israel Americans essentially wanting Israel to forcibly remove all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, which as a Christian I can't condone at all. It's just a depressing conflict where I don't see a resolution coming at all because there isn't give in either side.
Thanks, Mike, for your thinking on this. You put what I have been thinking and feeling into words better than I ever could.
My pleasure.
I’m with you on this!
Glad to hear!
Very well done. Thank you. Sadly, if you had attempted this summation of the conflict orally it would have been brief indeed, having been abruptly interrupted by some self-designated representative of truth and justice.
So true!
Faces the facts realistically and fairly
Some quick thoughts and a question...
1. The horrors in Gaza are Hamas' responsibility. A terrorist group that uses hospitals and schools as military bases and builds tunnels under civilian populations is responsible for civilian suffering and death.
2. Israel doesn't have magical powers that allow them to defeat Hamas without a lot of civilians dying. It's impossible. Do you think a lot of German civilians died as the Allies defeated the Nazis?
3. Israel is being led by a unity government. When the war is over B. N. will likely lose the election. But the opposition party holds the same objectives (free hostages and defeat Hamas). There is widespread support in Israel to defeat Hamas.
4. Hamas could stop the suffering at any moment. Simply release the hostages and go into exile outside of Gaza.
5. There was a "ceasefire" on October 6. Hamas broke it. According to media reports, Hamas won't agree to a new ceasefire. Unfortunately, they benefit from dragging this out and increasing the suffering. They hope world opinion will turn against Israel before they are defeated.
6. Hamas leaders have publicly stated they will repeat October 7 over and over.
The whole thing is horrible but given this situation, what should Israel do?
Thank you for those observations. I wonder sometimes about selective outrage. Sudan is likewise being decimated by internal conflict. No protests about that it seems.
Excellent analysis. Grateful you said this and hope it gets the attention of supporters of both guilty partners is this horrific conflict.
This topic is so fraught that I find the most practical way forward is to pray only positive prayers for Israel , for the Palestinians and for Hamas .Clearly God has the answers - but I do appreciate your clear thinking , thank you .
Thanks for posting. I grew up in Dearborn, Michigan, (and in the Plymouth Brethren movement) where at that time, our neighborhood was about 30% Arabic speaking (it is now 98% Arab speaking). I went to school with kids who spent their summer vacation back in Palestine running messages for the then Fatah. As a young adult in Detroit, the overwhelming majority of Palestinian Americans (both Christian and Muslim) I knew did not believe in a two state solution or in the continued existence of a Jewish State, and supported the various generations of resistance movements.
As an adult, in a career in humanitarian assistance (HA) I visited Israel a number of times and specifically (OPT or WB/GAZA) after the 2nd Intifada to lead a team doing an HA assessment and interviewed PA officials, and saw the heavy handedness of the IDF toward Palestinians in both WB and GAZA.
Frankly, I see no resolution to the current situation.
However, I know that just as the Kingdom of God was so different in the first century it should still be so now, and it will not allow us to support wholesale violence in either direction, -
What is the alternative view to give to either an Israeli or a Palestinian? Is our position, like a International Red Cross position neutral, or a pox on both houses?
As an initial comment, I'm not sure your judgment of Netanyahu’s goals and motives is entirely fair. It seems somewhat presumptive to say he wants to destroy or starve all Gazan Palestinians and that his main motivation is power. That's pretty strong.
Now, one clear reality is that Hamas has sworn, in their charter, to the destruction of Israel. The *state* of Israel. Israel has sworn to the destruction of Hamas, a terrorist organization, *after* Oct. 7, with Hamas saying they would repeat Oct. 7 over and over. And regardless of what any Palestinian authority has ever said, they have rejected every opportunity for a two state solution over the last 70 plus years, all the way back to the original UN resolution. This is because they only want the elimination of Israel. So after the October 7th Hamas attack Israel has reacted very strongly in a mission of self preservation. Their slogan following the loss of 6 *million* of their people in the Holocaust is of course "never again". So it's understandable they are in a bit of a manic mode. Understandable emotionally. I don't fully approve of it, but the U.S. acted somewhat similarly after 911. We must be sympathetic to encouraging some sort of proper strategy that does eliminate Hamas, not everyone in Gaza! Hamas makes that difficult with their despicable civilian human shields and their tunnel strategy (paid for with aid dollars). See this article in Newsweek declaring Israel has been more cautious about civilian casualties in urban warfare than *any* other nation!
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613?utm_source=Behold+Israel+News&utm_campaign=c1d077740a-Amir%E2%80%99s+Weekly+Newsletter+2.15.24_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_206749708f-c1d077740a-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&ct=t%28Amir%E2%80%99s+Weekly+Newsletter+2.15.24_COPY_01%29&goal=0_206749708f-c1d077740a-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&mc_cid=c1d077740a&mc_eid=8a80b5a5b8
I'm not even close to being a dispensationalist. It's wrong-headed theology in my view. But, I don't think God's purposes for Israel as a people in the land are fully complete. Jesus is returning to Jerusalem if we believe the prophets, so I wouldn't want to predict God's actions towards those who try to destroy Israel's existence.
Well argued!! War is "hell." Annihilation of any people today is unacceptable, brutal, and monstrous!!
should that read ‘both’?
Well spoken. Thank you.
BTW there is a good, nuanced artticle by Prof David Enoch in this week’s Economist on why he no longer supports the war in Gaza
Agree overall with what you said. I too have friends - Jewish and Muslim - each posting pics and stories of the atrocities endured by their people. It’s all quite horrible.
This line sort of struck me though - “It is one thing to take a life, the life of your adversary, but it’s another thing to lose your humanity in the process.”
I don’t know that it’s possible to engage in long term warfare - even with the best of intentions and rule following - without losing your humanity. The U.S. has been engaging in active combat around the world pretty constantly for over 20 years now - and the number of devastated soldiers and families is quite horrible. A recent finding is that even those who have not technically seen combat can have suffered severe and life altering brain damage from participating in grenade and artillery firing where their brains are subjected to repeated explosive force. And when these soldiers return to civilian life, they get lots of public “thank you for your service” while too often their wounds of all kinds are ignored or denied - leaving them and their families to cope alone and confused. It would be nice if war was truly fought by some kind of rules that preserved the warrior’s humanity, but I am not so sure that really happens.
Michelle, yes, PTSD and moral injury from years of conflict has a terrible impact on service men and women.
This is actually a reply to the main post - not sure why it went under another comment.
This is a topic that unfortunately I'm starting to get to the point of avoiding because both sides are now so entrenched in their views its impossible to have a reasoned conversation. On the one hand you have people who no find some way to rationalize what Hamas did on Oct 7th, no matter how evil it was. But now on the other side there's a dehumanization of Palestinians that is starting to result in almost a desire for more and more Palestinian blood to be spilled in a spirit of retribution. There has always been this resistance to thinking through what happens with this conflict long term and people resort to just saying Hamas needs to be eradicated (sure yes I don't disagree, but then what? The underlying problems arent going anywhere). But I'm increasingly seeing some pro Israel Americans essentially wanting Israel to forcibly remove all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, which as a Christian I can't condone at all. It's just a depressing conflict where I don't see a resolution coming at all because there isn't give in either side.
Nice job. You avoided the bias we see played out by both sides on news and social media platforms.