At a key point in Paul’s letter to the Romans, after Paul has been wrestling with the Jewish rejection of Jesus and the Gentile acceptance of him, warning Gentiles not to look down on the Jews as if they’ve been voted off redemptive-history island, Paul then turns to the topic of Israel in the future, and his claim is that in the end “all Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26).
Yes, I believe all that is true, a remarkable demonstration of God's faithfulness in His promises to Israel! I believe the land promises are also true and remain.
If God , in order to fulfil a promise, requires the killing of tens of thousands of small Palestinian children, enforced starvation, driving 2.3 million people from there homes, the worst saturation bombing campaign in military history ...... Then this god is not worthy of your worship and resembles nothing whatsoever of Christ...... Nothing.
Chris, I don't believe God "requires" any of that. Those are the results of human interactions. There are many and multiple dynamics in the situation, and human sin aplenty. God has said some things about Israel in His Word, but I don't see anyone saying God "requires" any of the specifics that have happened.
If God , in order to fulfil a promise, requires the killing of tens of thousands of small Palestinian children, enforced starvation, driving 2.3 million people from there homes, the worst saturation bombing campaign in military history ...... Then this god is not worthy of your worship and resembles nothing whatsoever of Christ...... Nothing.
Alas, Randy, that is a much used disclaimer that can no longer work. You have previously well articulated that you too are disturbed by the suffering, however, the shear scale of the destruction and suffering in Gaza has gone way too far. Added to that, real world foreign policy choices with horrible historical ramifications get made over this precisely because people in power thought they were enacting/ enabling prophecy. eg:( " the Balfour dec" ect).
If the ultimate effect of any persons given belief involves the mass suffering of others then you are obliged to, at the very least, scrutinise that belief, otherwise you may well end up contributing to that suffering. This is especially true for those who follow Christ. Many of the 700, 000 illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank are motivated by "Biblical Promises" - which means pushing others off the land that God has "promised them". Pushing others off this land always "requires" violence.
If God, as you claim, has mandated and foretold that this land belongs to one group over another, then it makes more sense to argue that God is in fact blessing that violence. Indeed, many with a Christian Zionist position do exactly this, citing the OT slaughters with a sort of strange pure Calvanism combined. "God has chosen, who are we to question? "
If this position is right, what shall we do when we find that our god is, in fact, a partisan cruel monster??
Dr. Bird what is then your interpretation of the land promises in how that relates to the current conflict in Israel 🇮🇱 Palestine 🇵🇸. We all realize it’s very complex on the geo-political level but how do we understand it in what you just wrote on the challenging passage of “all Israel will be saved “. How should we think about it biblical etc.
I don't believe that re-establishing the state of Israel is a fulfilment of OT prophecies because the OT prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus - see 2 Cor 1:20 and Acts 13:32-33.
In like manor, as a believer I find upholding the “banner of truth” and being a bearer of the promises, as one who proclaims, “teaches” and leads others towards Christ, also being convicted by that same Torah and need to be reminded, that my homosexual neighbors are blinded from a truth that has been revealed to me through a source not of this world!
I think the same way based on read scripture clearly from those passages and many others. Also understanding the totality of Bible ultimately pointing to Jesus the crucified Messiah. When I was a young believer years ago in Pentecostal circles they all held to a premillennial dispensational viewpoint very dogmatically. I assumed that’s what scripture taught, but overtime I studied more and learned that dispensationalism was a fringe movement from the very start etc. But it is still a very popular viewpoint in American 🇺🇸 low church evangelicalism (especially Baptist circles) context, though I think it’s starting to loose steam. If you haven’t read The Rise and fall of Dispensationalism: how the evangelical battle over the end times shaped a nation by Daniel G. Hummel, you ought it to and learn how powerful dispensationalism became in America 🇺🇸. Also did dispensationalism ever become popular in Australia 🇦🇺?
If God , in order to fulfil a promise, requires the killing of tens of thousands of small Palestinian children, enforced starvation, driving 2.3 million people from there homes, the worst saturation bombing campaign in military history ...... Then this god is not worthy of your worship and resembles nothing whatsoever of Christ...... Nothing.
If you remember anything, it should be this, God’s mercy in the Messiah will not Passover Israel, instead, it will embrace them!
Absolutely...!
Alas, will it also extend to the 2.3 million souls in Gaza who now have no home thanks to Israel ??
I certainly hope so!
Yes, I believe all that is true, a remarkable demonstration of God's faithfulness in His promises to Israel! I believe the land promises are also true and remain.
Randy, Stan, Nick,
I say unto you...
If God , in order to fulfil a promise, requires the killing of tens of thousands of small Palestinian children, enforced starvation, driving 2.3 million people from there homes, the worst saturation bombing campaign in military history ...... Then this god is not worthy of your worship and resembles nothing whatsoever of Christ...... Nothing.
Chris, I don't believe God "requires" any of that. Those are the results of human interactions. There are many and multiple dynamics in the situation, and human sin aplenty. God has said some things about Israel in His Word, but I don't see anyone saying God "requires" any of the specifics that have happened.
Well said!! God's faithfulness to Israel is a wonderful reminder and assurance of His faithfulness to us!!!
Randy, Stan, Nick,
I say unto you...
If God , in order to fulfil a promise, requires the killing of tens of thousands of small Palestinian children, enforced starvation, driving 2.3 million people from there homes, the worst saturation bombing campaign in military history ...... Then this god is not worthy of your worship and resembles nothing whatsoever of Christ...... Nothing.
Alas, Randy, that is a much used disclaimer that can no longer work. You have previously well articulated that you too are disturbed by the suffering, however, the shear scale of the destruction and suffering in Gaza has gone way too far. Added to that, real world foreign policy choices with horrible historical ramifications get made over this precisely because people in power thought they were enacting/ enabling prophecy. eg:( " the Balfour dec" ect).
If the ultimate effect of any persons given belief involves the mass suffering of others then you are obliged to, at the very least, scrutinise that belief, otherwise you may well end up contributing to that suffering. This is especially true for those who follow Christ. Many of the 700, 000 illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank are motivated by "Biblical Promises" - which means pushing others off the land that God has "promised them". Pushing others off this land always "requires" violence.
If God, as you claim, has mandated and foretold that this land belongs to one group over another, then it makes more sense to argue that God is in fact blessing that violence. Indeed, many with a Christian Zionist position do exactly this, citing the OT slaughters with a sort of strange pure Calvanism combined. "God has chosen, who are we to question? "
If this position is right, what shall we do when we find that our god is, in fact, a partisan cruel monster??
Dr. Bird what is then your interpretation of the land promises in how that relates to the current conflict in Israel 🇮🇱 Palestine 🇵🇸. We all realize it’s very complex on the geo-political level but how do we understand it in what you just wrote on the challenging passage of “all Israel will be saved “. How should we think about it biblical etc.
I don't believe that re-establishing the state of Israel is a fulfilment of OT prophecies because the OT prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus - see 2 Cor 1:20 and Acts 13:32-33.
In like manor, as a believer I find upholding the “banner of truth” and being a bearer of the promises, as one who proclaims, “teaches” and leads others towards Christ, also being convicted by that same Torah and need to be reminded, that my homosexual neighbors are blinded from a truth that has been revealed to me through a source not of this world!
I think the same way based on read scripture clearly from those passages and many others. Also understanding the totality of Bible ultimately pointing to Jesus the crucified Messiah. When I was a young believer years ago in Pentecostal circles they all held to a premillennial dispensational viewpoint very dogmatically. I assumed that’s what scripture taught, but overtime I studied more and learned that dispensationalism was a fringe movement from the very start etc. But it is still a very popular viewpoint in American 🇺🇸 low church evangelicalism (especially Baptist circles) context, though I think it’s starting to loose steam. If you haven’t read The Rise and fall of Dispensationalism: how the evangelical battle over the end times shaped a nation by Daniel G. Hummel, you ought it to and learn how powerful dispensationalism became in America 🇺🇸. Also did dispensationalism ever become popular in Australia 🇦🇺?
Randy, Stan, Nick,
I say unto you...
If God , in order to fulfil a promise, requires the killing of tens of thousands of small Palestinian children, enforced starvation, driving 2.3 million people from there homes, the worst saturation bombing campaign in military history ...... Then this god is not worthy of your worship and resembles nothing whatsoever of Christ...... Nothing.