“Alas, let us all remember, those who live in hermeneutical houses made of glass should not throw ESV Study Bibles at their siblings.” This made me lol!
Mike, your post would have been more convincing if you had offered an alternative interpretation of the Timothy passage which was not patriarchal. How would you interpret those words of Paul?
Andrew, I think Paul is responding to a particular situation in Ephesus. Paul seems to be flipping some of the heretical language on its head. So, if some say, women are saved by being like Eve, childless, he says, "No," women are "saved through child birth." The linking to Adam-Eve order is rhetorical rather than natural, since Paul deploys the same arguments 1 Cor 11 about head coverings which is clearly a cultural issue.
Yeah! Having been an egalitarian long before I ever learned the word, I always had a great deal of trouble with the teaching of eternal subordination. No matter what pretty terms people use to dress it up, subordination does say that one person is superior to another. I don't know how people that teach this heresy can talk about the Trinity where each person is fully God and yet one is over another. I don't think I have ever seen it stated that the Holy Spirit is also under subordination, and I would love to hear an answer to that as well, again within the fully God belief. When I first started studying the topic 30 yrs ago, I believed that the whole equality issue was a problem but relatively unimportant, until I learned about the heretical idea of eternal subordination.
Thanks Ron Henzel. I used your link from the Wayback Machine to find it. So it looks like it has been taken down but it had already been archived so we can still find it. Nettle's review was very defensive of SBC positions, a bit patronising, rants about Barr supposedly supporting children to disobey their parents, and weirdly he sarcastically almost defends slavery. "Paul was just kidding and really had no serious moral idea in mind governing existing relations when he wrote, “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by way of eye service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ.” Even so, the duty of the master is relativized if not utterly neutered when told". He does nothing to change my high opinion of Barr's book.
I've searched for the Nettles review but it looks like it has been taken down? Ive seen other references to it, all leading to the Books at a Glance site but it's not there. I have found another negative one by an SBTS teacher and it is patronising and calls her names. Does anyone know if the Nettles review has disappeared or has a link to it?
I don't even think Grudem and Nettle's and pals realize they are building their own babel by making God in their own definition of what a "tov" image is. Great response! I am going to pick up your book "trinity without hierarchy", I just read Matthew Barrett's "simply trinity" and joshua mcNall's "mosaic of atonement" and both speak into the heresy of EFS / ESS. So sad how far men will go to retain power and control!
One would have thought a church historian, Tom Nettles, would offer the expertise of a church historian.
“Alas, let us all remember, those who live in hermeneutical houses made of glass should not throw ESV Study Bibles at their siblings.” This made me lol!
Mike, your post would have been more convincing if you had offered an alternative interpretation of the Timothy passage which was not patriarchal. How would you interpret those words of Paul?
Andrew, I think Paul is responding to a particular situation in Ephesus. Paul seems to be flipping some of the heretical language on its head. So, if some say, women are saved by being like Eve, childless, he says, "No," women are "saved through child birth." The linking to Adam-Eve order is rhetorical rather than natural, since Paul deploys the same arguments 1 Cor 11 about head coverings which is clearly a cultural issue.
Save me a seat for that "household codes" debate.
Yeah! Having been an egalitarian long before I ever learned the word, I always had a great deal of trouble with the teaching of eternal subordination. No matter what pretty terms people use to dress it up, subordination does say that one person is superior to another. I don't know how people that teach this heresy can talk about the Trinity where each person is fully God and yet one is over another. I don't think I have ever seen it stated that the Holy Spirit is also under subordination, and I would love to hear an answer to that as well, again within the fully God belief. When I first started studying the topic 30 yrs ago, I believed that the whole equality issue was a problem but relatively unimportant, until I learned about the heretical idea of eternal subordination.
Thanks Ron Henzel. I used your link from the Wayback Machine to find it. So it looks like it has been taken down but it had already been archived so we can still find it. Nettle's review was very defensive of SBC positions, a bit patronising, rants about Barr supposedly supporting children to disobey their parents, and weirdly he sarcastically almost defends slavery. "Paul was just kidding and really had no serious moral idea in mind governing existing relations when he wrote, “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by way of eye service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ.” Even so, the duty of the master is relativized if not utterly neutered when told". He does nothing to change my high opinion of Barr's book.
I've searched for the Nettles review but it looks like it has been taken down? Ive seen other references to it, all leading to the Books at a Glance site but it's not there. I have found another negative one by an SBTS teacher and it is patronising and calls her names. Does anyone know if the Nettles review has disappeared or has a link to it?
Yea, Beth can speak for herself, but there is strength in numbers! We need men to let their voices be heard! Thank you!
I don't even think Grudem and Nettle's and pals realize they are building their own babel by making God in their own definition of what a "tov" image is. Great response! I am going to pick up your book "trinity without hierarchy", I just read Matthew Barrett's "simply trinity" and joshua mcNall's "mosaic of atonement" and both speak into the heresy of EFS / ESS. So sad how far men will go to retain power and control!
Your link to Tom Nettles' article is no longer working, but an archived copy is here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210512140303/https:/www.booksataglance.com/book-reviews/thomas-j-nettles-review-of-the-making-of-biblical-womanhood-how-the-subjugation-of-women-became-gospel-truth-by-beth-allison-barr/
I could not find it as well. Did they take it down?
Works for me