1. Can you summarize your views on the relationship between Christus Victor and penal substitution? To what extent is death, as the consequence of sin, punishment (as in God inflicts it) versus just the natural consequence of separation from the life-giving God? In other words, did Jesus receive our punishment because God has, wants, or needs to punish sin, or was his death substitutionary in another way (like he bore the consequences of our sin so we might avoid them and receive life)?
2. Proclaiming, anticipating, and willingly allowing God to bring about his kingdom in and through Christians is a major aim of our discipleship to Christ. That is so much more than just telling people to repent and be baptized to be saved from hell although obviously sharing the Good News of Jesus includes that. But from an eschatological standpoint, what happens to those who do not follow Christ either because they have not heard of him or because the proclamation of the gospel that they have heard is so distorted by party politics, hatred, and personality cults that it is completely understandable why they might reject the caricature of Christ that is presented?
I don't think a loving God (revealed in Jesus) could require a violent, grotesque death to satisfy himself- I find the idea utterly untenable and believe that it may even induce Psychological neurosis in those who maintain it.
On Q2/ - I absolutely believe, as Christ followers, that we are meant to be manifesting the kingdom now in anticipation of what is to come. This means living in Love and standing and presenting the truth to those who abuse power. We are to stand with and for the vulnerable. As for those who don't follow Christ (due to having no, or an inadequate experience of him). A loving Christ still embraces them - I love cs Lewis on this- "Christ in his infinite mercy takes the mail addressed to other Gods and directs it to himself". I am not quite a universalist but God, as revealed in Christ, cannot be a loving father and a monster at the same time. Peace to u brother- keen to hear your thoughts as well.
Chris, my apologies on not replying sooner. I read your responses but could not immediately respond and well, life happens.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and peace.
A few of my thoughts:
1. Regarding the first question, I think of a quote from N.T. Wright which I will paraphrase: The passage is not “For God so hated the world that he killed his son,” but instead it is “For God so loved the word that he gave his son.” I think in Jesus we see the ultimate example of God rescuing his creation not from his own wrath or bloodlust but from the consequences of their own death-choosing actions. I think that Jesus’ death and resurrection is the victory over the powers, sin, and death because he condemns the powers, sin, and death by both taking our place and freeing us from slavery to them. The God who is great enough to give life to begin with is great enough to give life again.
2. I love what you said here: “I absolutely believe, as Christ followers, that we are meant to be manifesting the kingdom now in anticipation of what is to come. This means living in Love and standing and presenting the truth to those who abuse power. We are to stand with and for the vulnerable.” We preach & live out the Gospel not merely by telling people to get saved but by sharing (verbally and with our actions) the message of the God who is saving and renewing all things. For those who haven’t actually rejected Jesus either because the Gospel was not shared with them or because the Jesus that was shared was such a caricature that they understandable rejected it, I believe that when presented with the real good news, even if this somehow happens after death, if they accept God then he will embrace them just as he does those who did in life. I’m not familiar with the quote from Lewis but he depicts something very similar near the end of The Last Battle when Aslan encounters a follower of Tash who really was seeking to follow a God like Aslan. I am not a universalist because in Scripture God does not coerce faith. So there will be some, who despite all that God has done, will refuse to accept him. But I think he has, does, and will do all he can so that as many as can be, will be part of his new creation.
Questions for Thursday:
1. Can you summarize your views on the relationship between Christus Victor and penal substitution? To what extent is death, as the consequence of sin, punishment (as in God inflicts it) versus just the natural consequence of separation from the life-giving God? In other words, did Jesus receive our punishment because God has, wants, or needs to punish sin, or was his death substitutionary in another way (like he bore the consequences of our sin so we might avoid them and receive life)?
2. Proclaiming, anticipating, and willingly allowing God to bring about his kingdom in and through Christians is a major aim of our discipleship to Christ. That is so much more than just telling people to repent and be baptized to be saved from hell although obviously sharing the Good News of Jesus includes that. But from an eschatological standpoint, what happens to those who do not follow Christ either because they have not heard of him or because the proclamation of the gospel that they have heard is so distorted by party politics, hatred, and personality cults that it is completely understandable why they might reject the caricature of Christ that is presented?
Question 2- is brilliant. Well said....
Thanks Chris. I’d like to hear yours or Mike’s thoughts on it.
Hi Patrick,
I don't think a loving God (revealed in Jesus) could require a violent, grotesque death to satisfy himself- I find the idea utterly untenable and believe that it may even induce Psychological neurosis in those who maintain it.
On Q2/ - I absolutely believe, as Christ followers, that we are meant to be manifesting the kingdom now in anticipation of what is to come. This means living in Love and standing and presenting the truth to those who abuse power. We are to stand with and for the vulnerable. As for those who don't follow Christ (due to having no, or an inadequate experience of him). A loving Christ still embraces them - I love cs Lewis on this- "Christ in his infinite mercy takes the mail addressed to other Gods and directs it to himself". I am not quite a universalist but God, as revealed in Christ, cannot be a loving father and a monster at the same time. Peace to u brother- keen to hear your thoughts as well.
Chris, my apologies on not replying sooner. I read your responses but could not immediately respond and well, life happens.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and peace.
A few of my thoughts:
1. Regarding the first question, I think of a quote from N.T. Wright which I will paraphrase: The passage is not “For God so hated the world that he killed his son,” but instead it is “For God so loved the word that he gave his son.” I think in Jesus we see the ultimate example of God rescuing his creation not from his own wrath or bloodlust but from the consequences of their own death-choosing actions. I think that Jesus’ death and resurrection is the victory over the powers, sin, and death because he condemns the powers, sin, and death by both taking our place and freeing us from slavery to them. The God who is great enough to give life to begin with is great enough to give life again.
2. I love what you said here: “I absolutely believe, as Christ followers, that we are meant to be manifesting the kingdom now in anticipation of what is to come. This means living in Love and standing and presenting the truth to those who abuse power. We are to stand with and for the vulnerable.” We preach & live out the Gospel not merely by telling people to get saved but by sharing (verbally and with our actions) the message of the God who is saving and renewing all things. For those who haven’t actually rejected Jesus either because the Gospel was not shared with them or because the Jesus that was shared was such a caricature that they understandable rejected it, I believe that when presented with the real good news, even if this somehow happens after death, if they accept God then he will embrace them just as he does those who did in life. I’m not familiar with the quote from Lewis but he depicts something very similar near the end of The Last Battle when Aslan encounters a follower of Tash who really was seeking to follow a God like Aslan. I am not a universalist because in Scripture God does not coerce faith. So there will be some, who despite all that God has done, will refuse to accept him. But I think he has, does, and will do all he can so that as many as can be, will be part of his new creation.
Blessings!
Wow!! Cannot wait!!