I know I’m late in the game, but I just came across an article from Crossway Publishers by Jonathan Leeman (9Marks) about a husband’s authority over his wife, and the opening quote was a little troubling:
100% agree with you… I saw first-hand the impact of a husband believing that he is the “caretaker” or “authority” over his wife. It is so unhealthy. I am personally appalled and concerned for my twin girls when I see how women are being talked about in the church now… the world will do what it will, but if the church sees my girls, or me, as somehow less-than because of our physical nature, then something is really wrong. God doesn’t see us that way.
Yes - my church doesn’t allow women elders . .. even after giving them Nijay Gupta’s book - Tell her story. There seems to be no advocacy / accommodations for single women and special needs people in our church because of it .. they promote soft complementarian marriage books in the marriage ministry. I’ve mentioned Dr. Philip Payne , as well . I don’t know what else to do .
Unless you feel God has very specifically called you to stay and work toward reform, I would suggest you leave and find a church that will view you as an equal. It seems to me you have done your best to educate. I've heard the stories of many in similar situations. Most end up leaving after increased bitterness and grief. Their only regret is they didn't do it sooner.
Ashley, I'm sorry you are doing though this. I've gone through something similar and I left the church. I know it's painful to do so and leave relationships behind, but it was a good decision for me and I suspect it might be for you too. I took a long time to transition and attended two churches for about 6 months.
Well said! I watched Leeman's video and when I heard his thesis, I cringed a bit (bit == a lot). Prior to being married (for context, my wife and I are married two years and I am older than her), I spent a lot of time meditating on Eph. 5. My first observation was v. 21 "Submit to one another in [out of] reverence to Christ" and I ran with that. I disagree with Leeman about his concept of authority, even one of counsel. I tend to account personalities into the mix; some women have a stronger persona than their husbands and vis-a-vis, in Leeman's view an authority of counsel still places a lot of authority on the husband and he can simply reject his wife's counsel! When you speak of sinister results, I see that as an aspect.
I viewed my role as husband akin to the Eastern Orthodox "primus inter pares" in that my wife is my equal, my soulmate, the one who I belong to. I seek her counsel on all areas of our marriage and family, I value her thoughts, and we collaborate. Depending on the situation, I often will embody her voice and her thoughts and will speak her words. It's a servitude mindset for me, her voice and thoughts matter and I carry it with me to session meetings.
Frankly, I eagerly long to do what pleases my wife. We both look for different ways daily to serve each other. We choose to understand each other's views when having differing opinions, believing that there is no such thing as a winner if we would choose to argue.
I struggle with this issue. I strongly believe that spouses should submit to each other. I am appalled at the verbal, physical, and even "spiritual" abuses women have received from men. What do you think the "head of the woman" analogy means in Ephesians 5?
May I ask a question I haven't heard the church ask? What does it mean for a wife to be the body of her husband? There is so much emphasis on "headship," but no one seems to ever had made up the companion term of "bodyship." Personally, my body and head work together and my head suffers greatly if it does not listen to my body.
It seems like the church is determined to define kephale as "authority," even though it didn't appear to mean that in the Greek like it does in English and Latin. I think we should think of it as a metaphor for the literal head interacting with a literal body. While the head is in the position of preeminence just like a husband/paterfamilias would have been in the culture at that time, it was nothing without the body, and the body was nothing without the head.
Just like Jesus has power over the church, the paterfamilias, which only men could be, had power over the family. However, Jesus is the example of how a husband should wield that power: in a servant-like way illustrated by domestic tasks like washing and feeding and doing caretaking labor.
I believe it was a radical take for its day. However, just like we don't have slavery, we don't have husbands wielding domestic authority like they did in Roman times, so I don't think husbands in our culture in this time need to be told how to use power like they did when Paul was writing because they thankfully don't hold it in the same way. Egalitarianism is often practiced now, even in marriages that will claim to hold hierarchical complementarian views.
100% agree with you… I saw first-hand the impact of a husband believing that he is the “caretaker” or “authority” over his wife. It is so unhealthy. I am personally appalled and concerned for my twin girls when I see how women are being talked about in the church now… the world will do what it will, but if the church sees my girls, or me, as somehow less-than because of our physical nature, then something is really wrong. God doesn’t see us that way.
Yes - my church doesn’t allow women elders . .. even after giving them Nijay Gupta’s book - Tell her story. There seems to be no advocacy / accommodations for single women and special needs people in our church because of it .. they promote soft complementarian marriage books in the marriage ministry. I’ve mentioned Dr. Philip Payne , as well . I don’t know what else to do .
Unless you feel God has very specifically called you to stay and work toward reform, I would suggest you leave and find a church that will view you as an equal. It seems to me you have done your best to educate. I've heard the stories of many in similar situations. Most end up leaving after increased bitterness and grief. Their only regret is they didn't do it sooner.
Ashley, I'm sorry you are doing though this. I've gone through something similar and I left the church. I know it's painful to do so and leave relationships behind, but it was a good decision for me and I suspect it might be for you too. I took a long time to transition and attended two churches for about 6 months.
Thank you 👍
Well said! I watched Leeman's video and when I heard his thesis, I cringed a bit (bit == a lot). Prior to being married (for context, my wife and I are married two years and I am older than her), I spent a lot of time meditating on Eph. 5. My first observation was v. 21 "Submit to one another in [out of] reverence to Christ" and I ran with that. I disagree with Leeman about his concept of authority, even one of counsel. I tend to account personalities into the mix; some women have a stronger persona than their husbands and vis-a-vis, in Leeman's view an authority of counsel still places a lot of authority on the husband and he can simply reject his wife's counsel! When you speak of sinister results, I see that as an aspect.
I viewed my role as husband akin to the Eastern Orthodox "primus inter pares" in that my wife is my equal, my soulmate, the one who I belong to. I seek her counsel on all areas of our marriage and family, I value her thoughts, and we collaborate. Depending on the situation, I often will embody her voice and her thoughts and will speak her words. It's a servitude mindset for me, her voice and thoughts matter and I carry it with me to session meetings.
This is excellent and well said. Thank you. Can you extend this line of thinking to an egalitarian theology in church leadership?
Frankly, I eagerly long to do what pleases my wife. We both look for different ways daily to serve each other. We choose to understand each other's views when having differing opinions, believing that there is no such thing as a winner if we would choose to argue.
I actually seriously can't believe in that opening sentence that he related wives to children. Sort of taints everything he could say after that!
I struggle with this issue. I strongly believe that spouses should submit to each other. I am appalled at the verbal, physical, and even "spiritual" abuses women have received from men. What do you think the "head of the woman" analogy means in Ephesians 5?
May I ask a question I haven't heard the church ask? What does it mean for a wife to be the body of her husband? There is so much emphasis on "headship," but no one seems to ever had made up the companion term of "bodyship." Personally, my body and head work together and my head suffers greatly if it does not listen to my body.
It seems like the church is determined to define kephale as "authority," even though it didn't appear to mean that in the Greek like it does in English and Latin. I think we should think of it as a metaphor for the literal head interacting with a literal body. While the head is in the position of preeminence just like a husband/paterfamilias would have been in the culture at that time, it was nothing without the body, and the body was nothing without the head.
Just like Jesus has power over the church, the paterfamilias, which only men could be, had power over the family. However, Jesus is the example of how a husband should wield that power: in a servant-like way illustrated by domestic tasks like washing and feeding and doing caretaking labor.
I believe it was a radical take for its day. However, just like we don't have slavery, we don't have husbands wielding domestic authority like they did in Roman times, so I don't think husbands in our culture in this time need to be told how to use power like they did when Paul was writing because they thankfully don't hold it in the same way. Egalitarianism is often practiced now, even in marriages that will claim to hold hierarchical complementarian views.
Excellent question!!!
That's a long discussion. It's the word "kephale" in the original and much has been written on it lately. Just search on that word.
Thank you!! I have read extensively studies on that word. Just wondered how Dr. Bird understood the passage.